lol @ kovaak losing dm4 to 100 pinger

its not a random 100pinger, its woodenshoe_man aka the one who aint tied up by eartly matters such as physics or lagnet

who won?

reppie also beat def with 90+ ping in dm4, in this very same tourney. Says a lot about the QW skills in the USA... :P

Funny thing is, dm4 is what many call a shafter's map, right? How well can one shaft when having 93 ping? heh.

KovaaK vs. cyan again? Kov lost to cyan already, and cyan lost to def, badly, from what I saw. It seems like def is by far the best USA player.

If reppie was playing in duelmania with 100 ping he would have still gotten to finals.

insane performance by reppie on dm4. it never felt really close. aerowalk was close but the big room is too big without a shaft..:(

all three of these games are somewhat low scoring, which is a testament to kovaak's ability to slow reppie's usually fast game down to his liking.

the dm6 is absolute by the book. the dm4 is also by the book: reppies book. the aero is quite interesting, but i dunno much about aero so :p

whew.. anwyays gg

and who ever thinks that losing to reppie on dm4 -- whatever the ping -- is indicative of the losers "lack" of skill: that is simply not true. the only thing a dm4 game against reppie can tell you, is how good reppie is. it tells you nothing about how bad the opponent is :)

great games

ggs
if he could use shaft things would be diferent

dread im pretty sure rep wouldnt go to final in duelmania with 100 ms, that would just be, well pretty impossible, u can ask him yourself :) and kovaak isnt bad either, maybe some things on dm4/aero but clearly dm6 def and his boys is top notch on, they arnt worse than euro there i think,

#7
i think it is fairly obvious that playing an all-out-offensive style isn't very smart on 100 ms

I kinda agree with #12 there, Phil.

"all three of these games are somewhat low scoring, which is a testament to kovaak's ability to slow reppie's usually fast game down to his liking."

^^^ What? In my opinion, it's obvious that a ping 93 vs. 26 was the MAIN CAUSE in the low scores. It would be quite dumb of reppie to go all +forward with that ping. I'm not saying KovaaK deserves no credit for that, but if reppie had a lower ping, even 52 (still twice as Kov), he'd have raped him in dm4/aero for sure. Don't know about dm6, didn't know KovaaK was that good in it, as Phil says.

lol dread obviously you dont know what youre talking about.

Defeating reppie, even a 90ms reppie, is a huge feat. He's proven that he's the best all-round duelist in .eu and it takes more than just a 50ms ping increase to stop him. So it's not like kovaak could just sit back and camp lg...

I actually think kovaak would give reppie a decent game on aero even on fair pings. Aero and dm4 are reppie's strongest maps so it's obvious they're more evenly matched on aero. And dm6... reppie shut Avenger out completely on that map in duelmania so it's not like that's a weak map for him. Granted it's a pretty lg-biased map but I'd bet they'd have a good game there too. And if not, then def could sure challenge him :)

Any modemer can tell you dm4 is not a shafting map, its the easiest map to play on high ping when u are relatively good it, u can practically win a game without seeing the other guy. Kovaak seems to have such a weird random dm4 style would be nightmare to play against on high ping but reppie did it, doubt many others could.

DM6 on high ping is different matter, someone with little tactics and just good aim can beat the high pinger.

Just look at the scores reppie has in duelmania. I'm sure they might be closer, but no way would it have changed the outcome. 41-4 and 35-12 against Razor, 42-3, 5-6, 42- -1 against Locktar. Thos were his last 2 duels. Before finals against Avenger. Maybe he would have lost dm2 by more and maybe the gaps would be less. But c'mon, winning by over 30 virtually every time. I don't think 100 ping would impede him from winning at all.

#17 clearly your understanding of qw isnt too high :)

dread is probably phils little brother

?

error you got something special to tell me?

I love how from the euro standpoint it's \"def and KovaaK suck on dm4\" while \"dm6 def and his boys is top notch on\"...

compare that to the north american comments of \"reppie sure sucks on dm6, but he's amazing on dm4\".

Think we could leave the suck comments out and be respectful?

Thats quite bad comparision, show me top NA player defeating para or dag 90 ms vs 25 on dm6 B)

http://www.challenge-tv.com/index.php?mode=demodetail&demo=27719

there was a dag/def dm6 demo pack, def something like 100+, dag the usual 12ms (right?) and i believe in the pack there was one which def won

anon beat me to it! speaking of anon.. #21, you are the first to mention the word "suck" here

Are there any good russian qw players? or are they just all q3?

dread: ye well but reppie is really good when he gets the control, so it can be pretty hi scores as in those duelmania games. But i have played reppie before his GGL matches, when i have 40 and he 90, and its like DAY and NIGHT difference from when he has 26-40, on dm4 he still felt almost as hard as usual for some weird reason, i guess he can still do his tactics etc there, i lost the dm4, but the dm2s and aeros before this game ended like 15-6 16-3 12-2 etc to me, or something like that, i dont remembre exact scores, (we played lots of 3 minutes games) :) and im sure he would have lots of problems vs locktar/avenger/paradoks etc etc, i mean just ask him yourself if he thinks he can beat any of those with 100 ms :)

I will drop my two cents into the piggy bank.

I hear alot of people ridiculing KovaaK for the victory scoreline despite the ping difference. In my opinion, you have to judge the match for what it is.

There was an extraordinary amount of pressure placed on KovaaK in this series, as he was the face representing the North American community in the duel world. As you can clearly see by the sentiment of these comments, not too many people around the world give it much respect.

KovaaK had the low ping, and the pressure was on him to win. For Reppie, these matches, and all others in GGL are a win-win scenario. If he wins, he only reinforces the notion of his dominance, and if he loses, everyone understands due to the condition of his latency. I know this because I myself have competed in European competitions, and always played alot more relaxed as the pressure to win was off my shoulder, and thus a burden upon to my opponent.

I think some of these factors contributed to KovaaK's play, as is evident at the onset of Dm4. KovaaK misses three very easy shots in a row, and he has confided in me at a later time that he was infact a little nervous.

Having said all of that, let me underline the fact that Reppie has yet again proven himself to be one of the worlds best players, if not the best with another remarkable high profile tournament finish. I just wish people would not take anything away from KovaaK in the end.

Insane: I have dozens demos of playing in Europe with 110-140ms and taking a few maps away from players like dag, interceptor, xalibur, razor, mrlame, locktar, koopa, giant, etc. Everyone slips up sometimes, yes, even dag. They are ofcourse non tournament results, so take them with a grain of salt.

yea non tournament that explains it all..

insane cant even win in practice so does it explain it all? dag is still the best.

I have stated before that I think Kovaak is the dark-horse of qw scene and I stand by that notion every bit as much if not more so today.

I also agree with the views expressed that you do not need low ping to do well on dm4. Of course it helps but rarely do you see people getting in close combat situations. Much of dm4 is prediction, shooting at the appropriate place but not necessarily even at the right time. For example, a slight delay when someone is escaping out of the hallway from YA can actually turn out to be a good thing because you can never truly know the exact timing when someone is going to pop out of there. I'm not attempting to diminish Reppie's skill on dm4 as he's obviously very good there.

On aerowalk it was obvious that Kovaak (granted ping advantaged) was dominant and it was only a matter of time before Reppie would crack. Reppie did a tremendous job at keeping the scores close for a good duration but he did so by playing defensively.

On dm6, I think everyone would agree Reppie did not have a chance with such a ping disadvantage.

The purpose of me pointing out what seems already obvious is that Kovaak is a very talented player by any person or Country's standards. IMHO if Kovaak were to live in Europe where there's a much broader and more active QW scene, Reppie would have a serious contender in Kovaak.

#26: I'd say the qw players of the russian clan Death Team are quite good.

#26
ALL HAIL XN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!11

The Large skill difference between the top NA players now (kovaak/def/cyan maybe myth?) and the next player, is LARGE when it comes to 4v4 and 1v1 (more 1v1 I think), I feel that this gives the top players a harder time to get better. Europe has many players and there are many more high skilled players than in NA and I feel that this is probably the reason why Europe's top players "seem" to be better than NA's.

4 NA players then about 10-15EU players (when it comes to 1v1)? With more high skilled players don't you think that EU would be better since they can have more practice with high skilled players?

and there it is!... if top players played me more...doh:(((((

doh and ggs of course... haven't watched yet!!>.. lol gonna post the ag vs zoo dm2 game.. if anybody wants to watch kov's amazing skills with 90 ping....no lg on dm2:)... but it's hot with ot.ofcourse i was cheering him on

In just about every game theres always been a few Very skilled American players, then the skill level drops dramatically after that.. whereas in Europe the drop is only very gradual, because of the big player base.

hemlich:

I totally agree. There's no question that there's a fairly big gap between the div2 and div1 players in NA. There's a few exceptions like Ziel for instance but he's been closing the gap quite quickly to becoming a div1 player.

Then there's players like BogoJoker who has the potential of being div1 but seems to have some blocks when it comes to certain maps and possibly gets more of a thrill out of doing tricks than winning games. Although JJ did show a competitive streak in the AmeriCup 2 tournament, so we may be able to look forward to seeing him climbing the ranks sometime soon.

A few examples of player that sit somewhere between div1 and div2 are FayD, Armageddon, -1, Bulldozer, Devious...k?, F]Sniper, F]Blackbeard, Ult, Cholo, Ziel, BogoJoker, and possibly X, Scarecrow, Elmo, and Proz (big maybe)

Many of these players have been fairly inactive or off-and-on which could be a big factor in why they haven't been able to commit themselves to being more in the div1 ranks.

Keep in mind I can't even account for many of these players as possibly only being 1 or 2 map wonders. Everyone knows to be div1 material you have to be able to hold your ground against other top notch players on at least 4 or possibly 5 of the accepted duel maps which probably many of the players aforementioned are not capable of doing.

You could probably add Slik, Anm, Thump, Nyana, Wyte, Bronx and Niomic to that list as well.

Then again I could of just created a list of NA's div2 players :<

For the record in response to Ziel #35 another problem with why I think there are not more good teams is NA has a funny way of organizing clans. Every elite team player gets recruited into AG. This is fine if all AG wanted to do was prepare for matches against other countries. It is good to have a solid team of skilled players for that. If NA really wanted to improve the number of good teamplayers they might think about taking each top member of AG to start their own clan. Def would start his own clan, Cyan would have his own, Myth, Kovaak etc. This would create 4 new clans and a much greater competitive spirit amongst the NA team divisions and each member would have to train and raise up their members skill if they want to beat the other clan. Segregation from the mediocre and the elite is what is holding many players down. This is where elitism fails, especially when you're trying to create a stronger community to rival other countries. AG could certainly still regroup when events like QWWC take place.

Anyways, that's my two cents but I really believe it to be true.

Blah... one final thought. Segregation also hurts the elite players of each country. As the saying goes, "You are only as good as the opponents you play". If all the elite players team up and dominate and alienate the mediocre players, then the mediocre never get good enough to challenge the elite thus the elite of that particular country could never match the elite of the country that "IS" being challenged by all manner of skilled opponents.

HERE HERE!!

you have a point to make but you contradict yourself saying "You are only as good as the opponents you play" .... "the mediocre never get good enough to challenge the elite"

the point is there just isnt enough players in N.A. to get past that "critical mass" where mediocre plaeyrs have enough mediocre players on hand to play with

An overlooked opinion ? and an unfortunate one at that - responsibility in the real world often overrules ?practice? in many competitive sports. A heavy case load of 18 credit hours in your 3rd year as a computer engineering major, and maintaining that grade point average to keep your honors scholarships and grants. Decisions, decisions . . . . . . .

I didn't state "the mediocre never get good enough to challenge the elite" to encompass the message behind my message. To be entirely accurate I said "If all the elite players team up and dominate and alienate the mediocre players, "THEN" the mediocre never get good enough to challenge the elite thus the elite of that particular country could never match the elite of the country that "IS" being challenged by all manner of skilled opponents."

What is meant by "You are only as good as the opponents you play" is that how greatly you are challenged by your opponents is a measure of greatly your ability to play (skill) will increase. Every opponent brings a unique skillset to the game. The more opponents you go up against all with their unique adaptive skills to the game the better you will become by learning to counter their varied techniques and approaches but only if those abilities are developed enough to challenge you.

You may have noticed that when players like Ult joined forces with AG or when FayD teamed up and played with Kovaak frequently how their skills exponentially increased. This is because they were challenged in ways that mediocre players could not challenge them allowing them to develop skills rapidly. They also probably felt confident that they were teamed up with the best allowing their confidence in their playing ability to increase. This is part of the driving force of joining clans, so that you can learn by teaming together with a group of people that so you can untap your potential and contribute to the team to be competitive against other teams.

The current state of the NA community is there is a segregation between the the elite and the mediocre. Ask any mediocre player if he feels in some way disconnected or alienated from the members of AG and I'm sure they will confirm this. Perhaps the real problem is not about how many players in the US are active in QW. Perhaps segregation and elitism has forced many people to give up on QW and move on to other games.

*encompass the meaning behind my message.

phil:

I think I better understand now what you meant in the first paragraph of your comment(46)

First, I'd like to infer possibly from experience the idea that an individual can be over-challenged. The notion of being over-challenged sounds like an oxy-moron (heck it probably is), but what I mean is the challenge is so great that the individual is no longer being challenged at all anymore. If you can imagine playing a bot that is rigged to move 10x as fast as you, to have perfect aim and to auto-sense you location no matter where you are in the map. The challenge of the bot would overwhelm you getting any personal challenge from playing the bot.

The best way for me to explain how this would work in a clan setting is using arbitrary math. When you have a pool of all the players in a given country and you consider that on average the players in the clan are 10x as good as the rest of the players then collectively let's say in a 4on4 game that clan is going to be up to 40x as good as the team they are playing against. What happens is the team is probably going to be over-challenged as described above or I could say they are going to be challenged beyond being personally challenged.

Now consider what makes online games so appealing? Well when you ask most people it is the challenge of playing against other people. So effectively if players are being challenged beyond the point of being personally challenged they no longer feel the thrill of what makes online play exciting.

This is totally acceptable on a competitive scale. There's nothing competitively wrong at all with creating a clan that totally devastates all other clans. The thing to consider is the consequences of creating such a dynamic. When you have one team that is so untouchable to the rest of qw scene people tend to lose interest. They don't feel personally challenged and feel like they are missing out from the "real" action. So what happens when people lose interest? They go away. What happens when people go away? It only leaves a few mediocre striving to someday be able to play with the elite and the elite continues to dominate what's left of the scene. Gradually over time more and more people fall off until there is only a hand-full of people left. Eventually the elite are going to have very few people to play on a day-to-day basis and they are not going to be able to keep up with countries that have lots of players to practice against. Eventually the elite will give up because they will look pathetic compared to the rest of the fast evolving qw scene in other countries.

This is hypothetical of course, but definitely food for thought and something I would take very seiously if I were of position.

I think the 2nd paragraph of your comment I answered in comment #48.

oneshotflinch: You must have great love for this game...but your comments "scares" me =)

Not meant to be offensive with this comment.

/have a nice day

Hellz yeah, QW pw0nz ;)

Thanks, you too B>>

now i wouldnt even consider myself a 'decent' or 'mediocre' player. however, in the past year of my addiction to qw, i have noticed the divide between the elite and basically everyone else. being that i am still such a new player throw into the mix with people who've been playing for 10 years, ive been inspired by those elite players. clans like AG represent what qw is all about, to me at least: Domination. everyone wants to be the best. if you disagree, /quit. Id also like to thank the few top players who have extended their kindness and knowledge to me in the past year, namely def, cyan, and kovaak, for supporting this new players dream to actually be a good player. i think the idea of splitting AG up to form other clans is something that should be investigated, and very well could benefit the NA qw comminity. but watching AG in perfect sync is like poetry in motion, something all of us should strive to achieve. thast all i have to say.

Well said dax. Thanks for commenting and sharing your position on this matter.

Krootie: When is my home made apple pie coming? :D

wow!>.....nice i didn't want to read the rest of phil's after reading oneshot flinche's......jesus the passion. Bane loves you all!

bane, even me!?!? :(

AG did split up. It was divided into 5am and The Boss. Both of these teams were beaten by mix teams numerous times. You can even download the demos on CHTV because someone uploaded it 5 seconds after the game.

def: If I can figure a way to send one - it's apple pie a la mode. ;) Actually, my posts do not belong on this message board - but I found the board particularly interesting for personal reasons. Excellent insight by all contributors. (Please, [someone] delete my posts at your convenience, as my interests are truly genealogy, not qw.) An afterthought - (as someone who has lived over there) there are cultural differences comparing North Americans and Europeans. Many foreign nations still have 7 weeks paid vacations, and long holiday weekends each month - providing generous time for personal interests and more practice time for your competitors. It was apparent to me in equestrian sports a decade ago. Our US rat race creates a time crunch and sadly, your sport isn't a particulary honored one in our hemisphere as elsewhere across the globe.

cyan:

Splitting up AG for only a short time isn't going to be a long term solution. As everyone knows clans are about teamwork and can take a lot of effort to co-ordinate everyone. Consider what worked out the way you guys split up AG and what didn't. If you don't take the appropriate time to plan the division of teams you're going to run into a number difficulties.

Forseeable difficulties:

Just like a well designed map you need balance. If you consider having two elite players to one team, then automatically you will need to have 2 on the other team to keep balance. My recommendation is to have 4 teams.

Def | Cyan | Kovaak | Myth

Here we've taken NA's most active elite but we still run into the problem of having players that are sub-elite that can offset balance if they are not properly selected among the teams. I would recommend something like this

Def & Yogic

Cyan & Ziel (subsitute Ziel for another player if you can think of a better one)

Kovaak & FayD

Myth & Ult

Now we've established a fairly even team dynamic. We have 4 new teams and we have lots of div2 players that can be picked-up by these core teams.

Now the final problem is it's likely that possibly you're going to have a clan that's going to form that's going to try and upset the balance. A team that comes to mind is:

Slik | Devious | Anm | Wyte

If you think about it, such a team will probably be a decent challenge and this is where the pickups of the 4 clans are going to have to better learn to work together to win.

I see the 4 clan stemming from AG as being a time for trial and error. It is evident to me that everyone who is in AG all has the potential of being leaders. You guys got good by overcoming many obstacles and being able to transcend peoples opinions of you. You all have a tremendous wealth of experience to offer the NA community.

I also recommend that you stay committed to your clans and resist temptation to scrap a clan and merge with another one. The key thing here is balance. If you break the balance of the elite and the sub-elite, the entire divisions run a serious risk to fail.

One final thought:

If you can maintain the balance long enough the goal here is enough of the div2 players will become good enough that you will no longer have to worry as much about maintaining relative balance between the teams. With enough clan activity, tournaments, and practice games this could probably take anywhere from 6 - 12 months.

Yogic is better than all you listed, oneshot.

Haha, yeah yogic is top notch. I just considered him to be fairly inactive. Those teams were just examples. You could arrange and subsitute the players any way you want. The key thing is balance.

What about Thump4? Isn't he very good?

damn with all these comments that have my name in them, reminds me i need to play again, im rusty as fuck.

Ken:

I listed Thump in post #42 :)

ziel:

The reason I mention you so much is because I see a lot of potential in your style of play. It's similar to what I pick up on when I watch JJ and Kovaak (although Kov takes it to a whole other level) play. You have established solid all round skills but also push the envelope in your offense techniques. I also perceive you thinking a few moves ahead of your opponents. It's easy to see your potential, you just need to to stick with playing. Being an off-and-on player will never get you too far towards being among the very best.

oneshotflinch, where do you play quakeworld?

I play at my school with my friends over the LAN. I just played until midnight last night after class. We also play CS, UT2004, Starcraft and WC3 but let's face it, CS and UT2K4 suck and I just don't have time to get too involved with games like WC3. I'm gonna bring in Quake3->promode and I wanna try warsow (http://warsow.net). When I'm finished school, I'll probably start playing QW online on EU and CA servers. I doubt I'll be moving out to the US again anytime soon.

To correct myself I'll be playing on West Side NA servers and Central Europe.

Good god, I'm fucking out of it now, we're not playing wc3 anymore, we're playing WOW.

69-71: you're fucking crazy

Most teens to young adults regularly playing online games these days would be considered crazy by conventional standards of living. How about you nate, what kind of backwards ass, redneck, wanna-be gansta, while trying to be all techie pro gamer-like all at the same time world are you living in dawg? "nate-dawg"

Fuck-off.

So you play lan and not on the internet at all? I also take it that you live in Europe, is that correct?

That's correct. I live West Side CA and also Central EU. I play QW LAN at school with KtPro/mvdsv 1on1 and teams, midair and dmm4 modes. I will likely be playing QW over the internet on EU and NA servers when I finish school in about 4 months.

CA as in Canada or California?

Right now I'm living in Canada. I used to live in Eastern USA but unless a job offer comes up from out there, I don't suspect I'll be moving East anytime soon.

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